UK: Housing in 2024

What are currently the biggest challenges and opportunities in the UK housing sector?

With a general election on the way and lots of competing priorities, CIH Director of Policy and External Affairs James Prestwich sits down with Callum Chomczuk, CIH Scotland National Director; Justin Cartwright, CIH Northern Ireland National Director; Matt Dicks, CIH Cymru National Director; and Rachael Williamson, Head of Policy and External Affairs for England to answer this very important question.



Amid alarming revelations, such as the number of homeless in London growing higher than the population of Oxford, this podcast paints a picture that's not necessarily all doom and gloom. A case in point: The prospect of rallying politicians behind a bipartisan approach to use the construction of housing for economic growth.

If you'd like to read CIH's Homes at the heart – A strategy, you can download it from their website.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

James Prestwitch (Host): “Hi everyone and welcome to the CIH podcast. Today I'm joined by Justin Cartwright, Matthew Dicks, Callum Chomczuk and Rachel Williamson. Rachel's our head of policy in England, and the other three guests are our national directors in Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. And, we're getting the band back together because last year when we did a similar podcast, we got the best listening figures, so give people what they want. The demand is clearly there to hear from our experts on policy and external affairs across the UK. So, it's going to be a pretty freewheeling wide ranging discussion on all of the kind of things that I hope those listening would expect to hear. But, of course, if there's stuff that we don't talk about that you think we should have done, then get in touch off the back of this and we'd be delighted to hear from you.”

“So, it's quite a big year coming up and we've had quite a big year too. In fact, it always seems to be quite a big year in the housing space. And what I'm going to do, first of all, just to kick us off and this will probably segue into the other questions that I want to ask is—and I'll come to each of you in turn—is where do people think, as we enter what we think is going to be a general election year, where do we think housing is going to feature in the general election campaign in each of the nations of the UK? And actually, this second question, probably the easier one, where do we think it should feature? And just by virtue of where you all are on my screen, I'm going to go to Justin first to talk a little bit about Northern Ireland.”

Justin Cartwright: “So, housing in Northern Ireland, obviously a Devolved matter and much of its trajectory depends on the size of the block grant derived from spending levels in England. I think a significant factor to consider this year in particular is the retrofitting of homes to achieve net zero emissions in the stock.”

“So currently Northern Ireland lags behind in energy efficiency policy compared to other regions. So, we have our Climate Change Act was passed just in 2022. An action plan's imminent that'll detail how carbon budgets and emission reduction targets will be met. But we've got no heat and building strategy, no regional policy, no funding support for retrofit, aside from a few pilot projects that are going on. So, alongside policy and regulations, funding is critical obviously, and if the polls hold true, a new UK government might emerge this year who has an ambitious plan to invest 28 billion annually in the green economy — contingent of course, upon maintaining fiscal rules.”

“And at CIH we're proposing to allocate £6 billion of that annually for cross-tenure retrofit. So, when that funding gets to Northern Ireland as part of the block grant, we need to make sure it's ring-fence specifically because to date the executive has tended to redirect funds from spending in England to support areas like health and education. And while those are crucial, given the urgency of reaching net zero, and these new legal obligations, I don't think that'll be a sustainable approach anymore. So we need more of a balance to recognise the need for financial backing to meet changes to the policy and regulatory framework when it comes to retrofit.

James Prestwitch: “Thanks Justin. And where do you think housing is likely to feature then in the election debate in Northern Ireland? Obviously understanding of where responsibility for housing policy lies.”

Justin Cartwright: “To be honest, it tends not to. So, I think CIH and partners in the housing sector have a key role to elevate things like retrofit into the public mind and just to demonstrate where general elections have the areas where they have acute relevance to housing in Northern Ireland. So I think we have a key role to play there.”

James Prestwitch: And I fear as we come to each of you in turn that the answer may be that housing won't feature as high as we think it should On the list, Matt, again, so by extension of where you are on my screen, I'm going to come to you now to answer the same question in the Welsh context.”

Matthew Dicks: “Well, I think just in the broader context, I'd say it needs to be a foundational mission of the next government. It needs to be one, two or three. Where are we in terms of housing? Are we in 1919? 1947, in that sort of level of housing emergency both around amount of supply and standard of supply? I would argue yes, we are if not worse, certainly in our lifetimes it's the worst and most deep structural housing emergency that we're facing. Yet you look at Rishi Sunak's five missions. There was a story yesterday actually where the advice manifesto was sent out to Labour candidates, and it was focused on Keir Starmer's five missions. In none of those 10 missions is housing prominent. So, whilst the rhetoric is there, the actual substance of what's in the focus and priorities of the two main political party leaders doesn't really reflect the nature of the housing emergency that we we're facing.”

“So, it does worry me and directly from a Welsh perspective, as Justin says, it's Devolved so it's not a direct correlation, but unless that level of investment, that foundational mission level of investment that we had in 1919 with Addison, 1.1 million odd homes built in response to poor housing, et cetera, in 1947, over a million homes built in response to poor housing. Even the Churchill Government and McMillan as housing secretary built 300,000 homes a year in the fifties. And arguably Thatcher's Revolution was based on that reassertion of a social contract about a decent home for everyone as a core principle of that contract. And we just don't seem to be in that space. We all talk about it, but it's not even one of the five key missions of the two party political leaders. So from a Welsh perspective that investment isn't going to come down. We're not going to get the Barnet consequential. And whilst the government here gets it, and has great ambition about building new homes and retrofitting, unless we have that central mission at the UK level, it's like a ‘wishlist’ rather than a reality. And that's reflected in the recent budget we had from the Welsh Government just before Christmas. So where should it be number one, where is it? Well, let's see what the manifestos say, but it's not looking hopeful, is it? Sorry to be so depressive.”

James Prestwitch: Thanks Matt. Typically forthright opinions and I think there's a lot in there and I think what you've teased out, there's some real challenge for the main political parties that if housing does feature prominently in their plans, then they maybe need to be a little more vocal about it, and bring that somewhere up the list in terms of the profile that they're according to it. Rachel, so if we come to you now for a view in England then ...”

Rachael Williamson: “Thanks James. I'm going to try and inject a bit of optimism in here. I was just looking at the latest YouGov poll, which shows housing coming in at number four, in terms of areas of concern. I think politicians pay quite a lot of attention to that. Of course, it's reflective of what do you get when you go and knock on the door if you're a local counsellor or a prospective candidate. And I'd hope, and certainly our call to action when we've been talking to people in the sector, is that housing is being raised more and more. What does it mean if you or your family and friends can't afford to pay for your current housing, let alone think about options for moving on from it? And I guess I was struck recently, if anyone hasn't listened, I'll give a plug to another podcast, which was the Louise Casey one on Radio Four recently looking at how to fix 'Broken Britain'.”

“There were five themes of which the first one I think she looked at was rough sleeping and actually many of the others related. So effectively food, hunger, poverty amongst other themes and actually housing came through so centrally within that rough sleeping, which we've seen feature a lot recently is a very sharp end of lack of affordable housing, isn't it? And the ultimate crisis point. But I think more and more politicians, whether they're being dragged into it or seeing it firsthand, are starting to recognise that housing is where you need to start.”

“Understandably, there'll always be a big focus on health in any election, but actually as we're doing more and more of our work to show — and actually we produced a publication just yesterday looking at housing and health partnerships. Actually, if you don't get housing right, you're picking up the bill in the health space. There's a load of really powerful data that shows the cost to the NHS, for example, of poor-quality homes. Or lack of accessible homes means people are more likely to have a fall. So [there's] loads in that.”

“In the same way we can see impacts on education with children that are missing school or turning up tired because they haven't got a bed to sleep in or they're having to travel a long way to back to their school having ended up homeless and living out in temporary accommodation further away. And, of course, there's a massive focus at the moment on the welfare bill how to bring it down, but so much money is going into the system that could be redirected where we're picking up the price of poor housing further upstream. So I'm very much hoping—and I think it's part of our job to push it up the agenda—that we will see it coming through more.”

“I think Matt's absolutely right to raise, you know...if you look at Labor's missions, we all went straight in to see community housing mentioned in there, but actually when you read into it, housing does come through quite strongly, and I take some comfort from going to the Labour conference with you James, back in their September, October time when it actually did feature very, very strongly on the main stage, and certainly in the fringe. And then we had a follow-up round table with Angela Rainer, shadow housing secretary effectively, who very openly said, and, she said publicly housing is very personal to her. So, I think that helps. I think we have to bring personal into it. We have to highlight the people behind the numbers because they're frightening. Over a hundred thousand people, over a hundred thousand children in temporary accommodation. When you stop and think what that means, the number of homeless people in London now is more than the population of Oxford and it's growing. So it's a massive issue and we need to make sure it's high on the agenda.”

“To be fair to the Conservatives, it wasn't on their main stage program, but there was a lot of talk on the fringe. There are a lot of people I think cross party who are very galvanised to action. The Conservative government in Westminster have produced what they're calling a long-term plan for housing. We might have a slightly different interpretation of what's a long-term plan, but they've got a big work programme. Consultations are still coming out. Obviously, we're not yet in the space of seeing manifestos, but there is more and more pressure I think from top to bottom to say something has to be done about housing. And I think it's helpful, whilst it's incredibly sad it's come to this, that we're starting to see mainstream TV coverage.”

“For example, ITV featuring more and more people who would never have imagined they'd find themselves evicted and homeless, but who are finding themselves in that position.

Some of the brilliant reporting that Dan Hewitt's done, everything from that through to Panorama looking at the housing crisis. So, I think it will be, and it depends a bit on when the election is called of course, but sadly I think it should be and will be. But, of course, we've got a big job to do in that space and we've published, if anyone hasn't seen it, a strategy which we're calling Homes at the Heart, which sets out exactly what we think needs to happen, trying to diagnose the problem and point to some of the solutions, which of course are long-term and short term.”

James Prestwitch: “Great, thank you Rachel, and thanks for striking an optimistic tone as well. I think Matt and me, as well sometimes err on the pessimistic side of things and you bought maybe a little bit of balance, so thanks for that. Callum last, but absolutely not least then, the Scottish context please.”

Callum Chomczuk: “So I'm probably more in the vein of Matt rather than Rachel. So, I don't think... housing doesn't pick up in general elections. It hasnt. But to be honest, the reality is in Scotland, and I think in other developed nations, these bread-and-butter issues don't translate into general elections anyway. General elections from a Scottish perspective are much... they're more thematic, they're kind of bigger issues. They're kind of vibes if you want. You think about, you know, let's go back to 2005, it's all about Iraq. [In] 2010, it's financial crisis and it's at the end of the Labour government. 2015, it's the fear about SNP and a coalition of chaos. 2017, Brexit. 2019, it's Brexit. This year the theme is going to be around time for a change. And if housing doesn't reflect highly in the campaign, I don't think that's anything to necessarily get worried about because part of the things that you're saying, Rachel actually, just because it isn't necessarily cutting through and the doorstep actually there is still a lot of thought, there's still a lot of people who are thinking about housing policy and a space to deliver it.”

“I think the reality is it just reflects that unfortunately for us, housing's a settled thing in a lot of people's minds. 60% of people are known their occupation, 25% is social housing and 15% here we go and the PRS. But for a lot of people, it's a settled market asset. It's only probably for 25% of the population, housing is a real, real concern. So, I don't think it's ever going to get to cut-through the education our health's going to have. So, I think I'm relaxed, it's not going to be kitchen table campaigning issue. What gives me confidence is actually the work that goes behind the scenes. So, we can see manifesto got some thought going on behind it. And the reality I think for the devolved nations is it never cuts through in that way because we know that our devolved parliamentary elections are the things that actually deliver on supply and standards. There's a narrative I think Justin talked about particularly around Barnett consequentials — [they're] massively important for us, but I'm okay, as long as we can still see that, have those private conversations with politicians, advisors that we can see the evidence. We know even if they haven't talked about in the campaign that when they get into Number 10, they get into the departments, they know what they're doing.”

James Prestwitch: “Thanks Callum. Rachel, did you want to come back in there?”

Rachael Williamson: “Thanks. Yeah, and I agree with all of that. I suppose just two reflections: One is that there's a growing power in the rental voter population I think, and more and more people at all different ages are finding themselves now without a secure home in the sense of owning, whether that's with a mortgage or not. So I think people are paying more attention to it.”

“And I suppose the other thing is that we do hear from, certainly the MPs that we talked to in England, that housing is becoming one of the top, if not the top issue that people are now contacting them about, which I guess means that they perhaps they will be pushing for there to be more offers. The challenge is what that translates into of course in terms of what goes into a manifesto, and you're careful what you wish for I suppose because some of the things that can be offered, so you look at help to buy Mark Two actually there's a lot of evidence that did rather skew the market and not help the people it's intended to help. So we might imagine we want to see it high up in lights [but] actually, we might not automatically want the answers to be nailed in there, because we'd like to be working with whoever's in government, but we want a commitment, I suppose, if nothing else, I think across the sector, we're calling to a commitment in manifestos to a long-term plan for housing, which of course means investment.”

James Prestwitch: “Thanks Rachel and Matt, you wanted to chip in as well?”

Matthew Dicks: “Yeah, no, I see what Callum's saying. I think you're quite right that they have been thematic, and I think this one is going to be about change, although what that change is being offered is questionable, isn't it? Given that Labour are saying they're going to operate within the current fiscal and budgetary geography. But I suppose alluding back to the point I was making; so back in 1947, back in '51, housing was a key part of that social contract conversation. And that's the point I'm making, I suppose. We are in a crisis at that level in terms of '47 — the housing stock needed, improvements to the housing stock... Even in 1919 and Addison and the clearance of slum housing, it became a national mission at the centre of that national narrative and that thematic narrative. It's nowhere near being that this time round. So I suppose that's what I'm saying.”

“And if it is around the question of thematic about change, what is that change, and how does that impact on housing, and the level of investment that we need? And I am not as pessimistic as I perhaps sound, but, ultimately, we have a sector that is very creative and innovative and can work with government — even within the tight confines we have. So I think a lot of it will fall on us to make sure that that conversation's being had during the campaign, and to work with government afterwards of whatever to make sure things happen. But I just don't get the impression that it's that level.”

“And going back to the Louise Casey documentary; I just thought the one that struck out for me is she said at the end of that first episode: I had a Prime Minister who was personally invested in this particular issue. So I think that's probably something that the sector needs to work on as well.”

James Prestwitch: “Thanks Matt. Rachel?”

Rachael Williamson: “Yeah, I suppose it was just to add to what you said, Matt, there's a danger that we can be a bit fatalistic and think, oh, housing never really features up there, so let's not expect too much. We'll carry on doing what we're doing and try and influence from the sidelines. Actually, you're right Matt, after the Second World War, the sort of late forties, early fifties, the two main parties were competing for who could offer to build the most houses — and good quality houses as well — and their manifestos were going really hard on that. Wouldn't it be fantastic to imagine a scenario where we could see that and it feels a long way off, but actually we are back there, aren't we in many respects with just how difficult things are without wanting to overstate the word "crisis". So yeah, I think we should be aiming high, and it's part of our job, isn't it, to get housing featured.”

James Prestwitch: “Thanks all. Next question I'm going to ask, [and] it's probably a really obvious answer, which is: What should be the main focus of whichever the new government is — and indeed the current government — in the housing space? And I suppose the really easy answer is well fix the housing crisis, but I think if we're all going to be pragmatic about it, there are different elements of all of the interlinked housing crises that need solving. So, Justin, if I come to you first, and you've touched on perhaps a little bit of this in your earlier answer, but if there was one priority in the housing space then beyond fixing the housing crisis in Northern Ireland, what would it be?”

Justin Cartwright: “I think it would be retrofit because I mean while it seems to me that challenge in England is huge in respect of addressing housing need and ensuring that we're building the quantum of housing that's needed. I mean that's not rocket science. I mean we know what to do and a lot of it revolves around adequate capital grant that make sure that we can build homes at a proper, affordable social rent. We've done it before, and we can do it again. So that requires money, and it requires policy change. But I think, and look, I mean the Devolved nations have done that, and done it well... obviously budget pressures are now arriving. But when you look at the scale of the retrofit challenge, it's enormous, not just in financial terms, but in practical terms. If you think older homes that need a deep retrofit where you're going to be going into people's homes, potentially kind of kicking them out and rehousing them for a tile while rip up the floors and do deep insulation work in the floors, the scale of the challenge just cannot be overstated and that is the critical thing that we need to do to ensure that we reach net zero emissions in the housing stock.”

“So, I think that that's why I'm heartened, I guess, to hear that the potential new UK Government has an ambitious plan, and I recognise that it is an ambition. Obviously, there's been a change in narrative since late last year where they've said, look, £28 billion annually, but since then they're keeping an eye on debt as a proportion of GDP. They're keeping an eye on fiscal rules. But I think it's allowable to still have such a lofty ambition because it really does excite me when governments have proper nation building infrastructure projects and it's not just kind of managerialism. I think governments need to have that ambition. So, I mean if they focus on that, that will keep me happy.”

James Prestwitch: “Thanks Justin. Matt, then coming to you. So again, same question and obviously we want the housing crisis to be fixed, but is there a specific element of it that you think needs to be accorded a priority in Wales?”

Matthew Dicks: “I agree wholeheartedly with Justin. I think Retrofit does so many things, not least net zero, but I mean what's the biggest driver of the cost-of-living crisis? Energy costs. So, we retrofit our existing housing stock, and we have a long-term, medium term solution to that. We drive down the cost of energy, therefore the impact that has on tenancies ending and evictions, et cetera, because people have been spending too much on energy costs. So, there's that side of it, but also, I think going back to the previous question slightly, making it a core part because all parties are putting growth, economic growth at the heart of their strategy for change. What better than focusing on retrofit, driving up skills, driving supply chains, becoming world leaders in them to drive economic growth. The great economic growth of previous times, back to '47 has been house building.”

“So, let's use that, and understand that, and again, get the politicians to see it as more than just bricks and mortar. It's a tool in which to really, really spur economic growth, reduce the impact of cost of living and get a long way to reaching net zero as well, and in turn addressing the homelessness crisis because fewer people are going to be having trouble with their rent or mortgages or whatever, but I think for that to happen at the scale we need, sorry to bang on, but I think we need to work out how we bring the owner-occupier sector into that to drive down market costs of doing it all because it can't just be done by the social housing sector.”

James Prestwitch: “Yeah, thanks Matt. Rachel?”

Rachael Williamson: “Well, I can't say the same thing as Matt and Justin, otherwise it'll get boring won't it? But I obviously don't disagree with anything they've said. I suppose this seems to be obvious in a way, but we haven't had it for such a long time in England, just really clear set of housing targets where you've got proper regional level plans that show what housing is needed and where, with a plan for housing growth and need. And then obviously with that supporting it, if I can slightly stretch out the answer, a sustainable planning and financing framework so that you then can look to plan to fund the work around decarbonisation because the sort of start stop of planning reform, and grant and subsidy and money being turned on and off, has been so difficult — We've had that crazy situation where sometimes money that's been in the (????) budget has had to be given back because it hasn't been spent. So it's not always all about the money, it's about the wider climate to be able to deliver. But actually if in the social housing space, if providers just knew this is where we are in terms of rent settlement, we're clear on the targets we're working with in the locality placemaking sense, you really could have, as Justin said, much more ambitious plan at national, local, regional level and move away from just managing crisis, which is what it feels we're doing at the moment.”

James Prestwitch: “Great. Thanks Rachel. Callum?”

Callum Chomczuk: “So you give me one wish, James one wish. I'm going to break the link between housing and wealth. That's what I'm going to do. So how are we going to do that? Things like land value capture, something that actually... I live in Edinburgh. The only people who can afford to build houses in Edinburgh are your large generic builders, which is fine or student accommodation. That's what you see. There's nothing wrong with student accommodation, but you need a balanced portfolio of housing across the whole of the country and we can't do that while we have ongoing escalating prices.”

“So, in Scotland, we've now got unit prices probably average rising from £170,000 a couple of years ago, some people are talking £300,000. You're almost doubling that in a few years. There's no way government, the sector or anybody can keep pace with that. And that's what we're seeing. A very large developer in, Stewart Milne, who's just went into administration because they are under pressure.”

“And Justin's right and Richard's right; We want to keep pumping money in, of course we do. But more importantly, that can't always be the solution. We need to look at the systemic drivers of our housing system that are failing it, and that is the land inflation, the land price inflation. If we can address that, if we could stop building and just making this land available to things like student accommodation, because we have the most appalling space standards and why we allow this exemption for student accommodation is beyond belief, but nonetheless we do. If we could address the actual cost of land, if we could allow actually houses to be built to a more affordable scale, then we would be able to have more money for everything.”

“So, if I could do anything, it would be — [and] we've done it in the past. This was another thing. We have done it in the past. The Labour and Tory government's [have] played ping pong way actually looking at this and then taking away, look at this [and then] taking ... Actually, I know it's messy, and I know it's tricky and I know there's a lot of people that are not interested in it, but things that we could use to depress the cost of land, we'll just get so much bang for our buck when it comes to anything. And that will allow us to deliver on the vision and anyone listening to this podcast would want.”

James Prestwitch: “Callum, thank you. And I'm going to use Chair's Prerogative as well to say what I would like to see. And there's so many elements that we, because the nature of the housing crisis, because we've got to this point as a nation, that housing is almost in kind of perma-crisis.”

“There are loads of things that we haven't even mentioned there, and I think you've all come up some fantastic medium to longer term issues that we absolutely need a government to grip. I think in terms of for me then a shorter term one and at the real sharp end of the housing crisis is the homelessness crisis, but specifically thinking about temporary accommodation and I think whoever wins the next election sorting out temporary accommodation absolutely needs to be top of the list in terms of the short, medium, long-term priorities for that government. We've got a current government that's promised to bring an end to rough sleeping by the end of the parliament. That doesn't look like it's going to happen. We've got significant numbers of people that are classed as hidden homeless sofa surfing, living with family and friends. So, someone, whoever wins the election to really grip that temporary accommodation and wider homelessness issues, I think it'd be something that would be really welcomed.”

“I'm just conscious of time, and the fact that we don't want to go on and on and on, although we absolutely could, of course. So just by way of a fairly short final question, I'd just like us to try and find a nice optimistic note to finish on and I do think there's been a decent deal of optimism throughout the conversation that we've had, but if I could just come to each of you in turn then to just reflect on something that's happened in the housing space this year, either through CIH or the sector at large that you view as being quite a successful positive outcome for housing for the people that live in social housing and for the wider wellbeing of the nation. Justin, can I come to you first on that?”

Justin Cartwright: “Yeah, thinking about the private rented sector, so obviously we haven't had an executive for a long time in Northern Ireland, but in spite of that there's been good changes in the pipeline. So, this year the law changed so that landlords can no longer seek a deposit from private tenants that exceeds one month’s rent. Obviously in the context of the cost-of-living crisis, that's quite a welcome change.”

James Prestwitch: “Great, thank you Justin. Matt?”

Matthew Dicks: “Yeah. Can I be naughty and I have two quick ones?”

James Prestwitch: “Go on then.”

Matthew Dicks: “First of all, our professionalism. So, as a result of better social housing view... Obviously we bang on about it all the time because that's our raison d'etre — to make us better as housing professionals and we've been doing it ever since we've been in post. But I do get the feeling that since the Better Social Housing review, since the response, there's a real granular depth now to that discussion about what it is to be a housing professional, and about how we can do it better and about culture, organisational culture, and about just getting to the nub of it and particularly in Wales. I mean we're all in different places, in different jurisdictions. You guys [have] got legislation backing that agenda up. We're doing it more organically here, but the sector is responding to it, and I think that's really positive because at the end of the day, we're about outcomes for our tenants and creating that good experience for everyone.”

“And just very quickly from a Welsh perspective, we had the green paper on the right to adequate housing and we're going to have the white paper in summer. We've been campaigning on that since 2018. This is about changing the paradigm, what we were talking about throughout changing the paradigm, pushing housing right up the agenda and getting the investment and focus that's needed. So yeah, some good things there.”

James Prestwitch: “Great, thanks Matt. Rachel?”

Rachael Williamson: “I'm going to do a cheat answer and say legislation because that has a few different layers to it, but last year obviously we had the Royal Ascent of the Supported Housing Act as well as the Social Housing Regulation Act. Two really important pieces of legislation and obviously tie into what Matt was just saying there on professionalism, but that move back with the support, sorry, the Social Housing Regulation Act that move back to proactive consumer regulation will be, I think, a real game changer and it ties in with a lot of the work we were looking at through the better social housing review, but the focus on quality, the focus on tenant voice, the focus on professionalism are really, really important. Of course, we still need all the other stuff. We still need more housing, more affordable housing, more investment. But the cultural shift I think is really important there.”

“And of course, sadly, there's always going to be poor practice and rogues in any market where there's a business opportunity. And so that Private Members Bill that was bought by a Conservative MP Bob Blackman, that translated into the Supported Housing Act is also really important. And it's one where we work really closely with crisis in supporting on that and that will do some really important things in the exempt accommodation space. Touching on some of the stuff that you talked about, James, around temporary accommodations, I think that's really important.”

“Then of course private renters have are hugely important in all of this, and sometimes get missed. I think in our conversation. The Renters Reform Bill that's passing through at the moment, and hopefully will receive Royal Ascent this year is also really important. It might not do everything we'd hope it would do; there's a challenge for any government in getting its balance right between what people are looking for from the landlord and the tenant bodies. But back to your point, James, on homelessness, we know that an end of a private rented sector tenancy is one of the leading cause of homelessness. So making it more secure for people in whatever tenure they're renting is really important. And CIH has been involved in all of that for a long time.”

James Prestwitch: “Great, thanks Rachel. And Callum, we'll finish up with you.”

Callum Chomczuk: “I'm going to say LHA. Actually, the changes to LHA rate announced by Jeremy Hunt, was it last month? Actually, that was massive, and I suppose it actually shows a bit of a path actually. You talk about cross-UK, cross-organisation, cross tenure support for this. The idea that the drift that's been in what LHU rates were versus market rent was ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. And so few people would have LHA actually cover actual cost of rent. The increase in 30% of us, which is coming in April, is so important. Now the risk is that's for one year. We're going to see decoupled almost immediately. So that's a challenge there for the next government: How do we ensure it continues to match rent?”



“There's so many other reforms we'd want to make to LHI or the BRMA is the right size. Lots of things we look at. Obviously subsidising private rent is not what anybody wants — we want more social housing. But if we look in a success that actually is going to deliver a real difference for people and help address poverty and actually it's modest. So many ways, that'll make a difference.”

James Prestwitch: “Right. Thanks Callum. Rachel, you want to come in just at the end?”

Rachael Williamson: “Yeah, that's the one I would've said if I could have had another. But just to add on that, I think that's a brilliant example of the sector really working together with an evidence-based approach to really push government on that. But it goes back to that opening question I think James, on where is housing on the agenda, and how do we get it higher up? Actually, that was an example. LHA rate has been out of kilter for a long time. We've been making the same arguments over and over again. I wonder if what happened this time was, it did just start to hit through more and more with people approaching their MPs and others. So, we can put all the evidence together, but sometimes the politics just have to be right, don't they? And we have to then keep making the case. So, we are literally about to put our spring budget submission in for the March 6th Budget where we'll be making that case for, yes, brilliant, we've had the uprating, but as you say, Callum only from April and only for a year as things stand. So, we need it to continue, but more importantly, we need to get housing and costs more in line with actually what's happening in the real world.”

James Prestwitch: “And that's actually a really good way to finish the pod Rachel, I think you, you've summed things up brilliantly, and as we've done throughout, we have been able to hit a little bit of a hint of optimism in there too, which is, let's look at the evidence. It maybe sometimes feels as though we're banging our head against a brick wall, but housing is so important. It is so fundamental. It's up to all of us in the sector to keep on keeping on, and keep making that case to this government and indeed to all future governments until we get to a place where the housing crisis is solved once and for all.”

“So, thank you so much for joining me. We could have talked all day and perhaps what we should do is look to get together not in 12 months’ time, but perhaps in five or six months’ time for a little bit of review of where we are, where the year's got to. Hopefully the listing figures will be as good for this one as they were for last year. And there's always an opportunity for members to continue the conversation on social media, on Twitter or via email or if you're lucky enough to meet us in person. So, thank you all very much for joining me today.”